Coleman vs. Jayco vs. Starcraft

[dmyers7]

I sure wish I had the built-in stereo system the Starcraft/Jayco's had in them -- I have stereo envy....

Not to highjack, but install one.  They are only car stereos in disguise (well not really in disguise).  I was thinking of upgrading mine (odd that yours did not come with one) to one of those fancy DVD playing car stereos with the capability for different audio on the rear speakers then the front speakers. (Keep in mind, that the "front" speakers are normally inside the PUP and the "rear" speakers are normal outside speakers on the side of the PUP.)  So a DVD for the kids inside with radio or iPod outside for us with a book; all from the same "car/PUP" stereo system.

[Extreme4x4]

Score one for Coleman/Fleetwood/FCTA.

There are numerous positive things afore mentioned and I want to include:

• One piece bunk platforms (king-sized beds)
• 1000 lb capacity on said platforms (with only two drop-down support tubes)
• Longer bed rails supporting said platforms
• Steel seating support frames
• No crazy random spacer blocking for proper fit of doors/door hardware (I saw a lot of this on the Flagstaff's)
• Steel piano-hinged seat back supports for the dinette seat backs (no cheaply hinged 1/4" Mahogany ply)
• No needed roof support rails
• Superior finish and structural workmanship

I'm sure that others have their reservations on what I mentioned but I spent over a year looking through all different models of PUPs before I purchased.  I know that I purchased the right trailer (manufacturer) for my family and I the first time.

I sure wish I had the built-in stereo system the Starcraft/Jayco's had in them -- I have stereo envy....

Later!


'07 Williamsburg
'01 Chevy Venture

I agree completely, with your observations.

We just purchased a very lightly used Fleetwood Avalon. After we set it up in the yard (we have a 1/4 acre), so we can get it stocked, I started walking around it, and looking at the details. Now mind you, I had not looked here first. I was incredibly impressed with the details of the build, that you have noted above.

If we had not rented a Rockwood recently, we would not have realized the differences............ but they really are glaring. All you have to do is get on one of the beds, and it becomes quite obvious. Nothing moves, shifts, or groans. Me, my husband, our 7-year-old, and our 2-year-old Rott were all on the bed, and it was sturdy as could be. I pointed out the extended bunk "arms," and commented on how different that was, than the Rockwood, where they only extended in the camper a few inches. I did a detailed walk around, and noticed the sectioned tenting, the great way that all of the tenting connects to the tub, and the way the bunk end tenting is so cleverly secured. (in the Rockwood, there was a bungie that ran from one side to the other, and velcro under the bed, on the plywood) I also saw the reinforcements that are under the bed.

When I looked over my storage, I noticed the metal framing for the dinette seating.............. and even commented to my husband, about it, and how much better built it was, than the Rockwood.

Basically, I am very impressed. There are so many clever little details that you just would not realize, if you hadn't seen a PUP that was not built as well.

We plan to keep this trailer for a long time, so it is nice to know that we bought such a well built, and well thought out one. There really are differences, and people should look at their options closely, so they can see for themselves.

[Bigdogs]

    I have to say, we are very new to P'up's and in no way, declare to be experts with them. With that being said, we have probably done more shopping in the last 2-3 years than most do in a lifetime. If we weren’t camping ourselves, we would take Saturday trips to campgrounds to Pup shop. I think it is safe to say that we have probably been up close or inside more than 100 rigs and have talked extensively with at least 30 people or so in our travels. Before buying our first P'up, the bulk of our interest and questions pertained to Make & model which then shifted to floor plan and techniques.

    We have owned a '93 Royale, '02 Laramie and an '04 Cheyenne. Notice that they are all Coleman, there is a reason. First of all, I can understand why certain people might prefer another brand but in our case, I just always walked away from a Coleman feeling like things made sense as apposed to walking away from certain other makes that often left me wondering.

    I am an Engineering Technologist specializing in Manufacturing process and Aesthetical Design. Needless to say, those things are very important to me when considering the purchase of anything. To me, fit and finish, value added engineering and simple solutions make all the difference in the world. There are so many little examples of this that is apparent in a Coleman when compared to others that I could fill up your entire screen. With that being said, many of these things don't amount to a hill of beans for most 'non anal engineer' types like me but then some do.

    Many here have already discussed these options and I don't want to spoil your shopping but I'll list just a few.

#1 Coleman's stepper door with courtesy light, floor mat and storage door for mat & tools it by far the most novel idea I’ve seen yet!

#2 Coleman’s breathable Sunbrella fabric is the lightest weight, most durable, most attractive, coziest, most sound absorptive and most waterproof tenting I’ve seen.

#3 Coleman’s back saver bunk supports are easy and effective.

#4 Coleman’s 4” wide, stainless steel roof supports are by far more stable and more attractive than the other 1-2” steel supports found on others.

#5 The overall termination and assembly of materials contributes to a clean, integrated fit & finish that just feels right as apposed to an after thought like many others.

#6 I can’t imagine not having a wider single piece door like the ones in a Coleman. The others I’ve used just feel small, loose and of poor design.

#7 Though the purchase price can tend to be a bit higher, it’s due to a higher resale value which is a good thing.

    Now again, I don’t mean to take the position of saying that Coleman is better than anything else, especially when I have not owned anything else, I only mean to point out what made us feel like buying a Coleman, 3 times, over any other brand.

Good luck!


    I am an Engineering Technologist specializing in Manufacturing process and Aesthetical Design. Needless to say, those things are very important to me when considering the purchase of anything. To me, fit'n'finish, value added engineering and simple solutions make all the difference in the world. There are so many little examples of this that is apperent in a Coleman when comparred to others that I could fill up your entire screen. With that being said, many of these things don't amount to a hills of beans for most 'non anal engineer' types like myself but then some do.

    Many here have already discussed these options and I don't want to spoil your shopping but I'll list just a few.

#1 Coleman's stepper door with curtisy

[canoeman]

we spent a bundle on the fleetwood evolution 3 with almost every option except for power lift.
the construction and factory quality control would be an understatement to say it was atrocious.
three out of every 5 screws are missing from floor frame, the lift mechanism is constantly breaking.
the trim in the inside is always falling off
the water lines inside an out were either mostly kinked from factory or kinked and broke after the first few months. the screen door is trash.
the radio wasn't installed with any kind of brace, or properly held in place.
the bright radio light always stays on, it shines right in your eyes
the curtain rail slides are stapled to the curtain
the slide out doesn't stay closed when driving, it hangs out about a half inch
the toilet caulking came of after just a few months.
the metal  seat back in slide out broke the first day, all the screws popped out.
every person who worked in the plant should have been fired.
there was no quality control on these units rolling off plant floor
the dealer last week said they are no longer repairing fleetwoods anymore because the manufacturer wont pay for warranty repairs or send parts for repairs. and this one of the biggest fleetwood dealers in southern california

I would never buy a fleetwood again.

dont buy fleetwood evolution series pop ups.

[Unstable_Tripod]

As we know, the humans on assembly lines can have bad days.  Every brand of car has produced lemons.  It seems that you got a PUP lemon.

[canoeman]

I could never get enough money for the trailer to make it worth selling it, It took me two years to fix the omissions, errors and poor workmanship, and complete void of quality control, in the manufacturing of fleetwood evolution 3's.
I wish the japanese would start making pop ups to avoid the truly shoddy American rv manufacturing system.
I would love to buy a Honda RV.
No wonder the american rv manufacturing companies are folding like pop ups.
The work force clearly is not skilled enough, or even worse,  even care enough to put out a quality product.
Please Japan, make us some quality pop up trailers please please please  ................  so we dont have to buy this crap.

[ghacker]

...the dealer last week said they are no longer repairing fleetwoods anymore because the manufacturer wont pay for warranty repairs or send parts for repairs...

This concerns me. I wonder if it's related to the bankrupcy? Although I haven't actually used my NTU used Bayside, I'm impressed with the overall construction. Everything works and it appears in almost LN condition. Have had it set up outside in my driveway while I "tweak it" and it's weathered several heavy rainstorms/wind quite well.

[canoeman]

I hate to sound so down on fleetwoods, but, for what I paid, the quality is not there.
this reminds me of the us car industry in the late  70's, or mid eighties, quality was not an important issue. that's why the us manufacturer handed the car business to the Japanese.
quality control makes a huge difference.
I'm positive that because this style of pop up was so popular they literally couldn't keep them in the show room.
they were so busy pumping them out they just didn't care.
If cars were going out like this the feds would have forced a recall
the design was good but the construction unsupervised.
good luck finding someone to repair  your ev3 under warranty.

...the dealer last week said they are no longer repairing fleetwoods anymore because the manufacturer wont pay for warranty repairs or send parts for repairs...

This concerns me. I wonder if it's related to the bankrupcy? Although I haven't actually used my NTU used Bayside, I'm impressed with the overall construction. Everything works and it appears in almost LN condition. Have had it set up outside in my driveway while I "tweak it" and it's weathered several heavy rainstorms/wind quite well.

[Extreme4x4]

I understand your anger over the poor workmanship of your trailer............... please do understand that.

However, I have spent alot of time on this, and other forums................ before I even started to look at buying. In all of that time, I have never seen anyone who has had the problems that you had.

It would seem that you truly got the lemon of the deal. For that, I feel bad for you.

To paint the entire industry, and the American assembly, specifically.................. with the same slip-shod, terrible quality, don't care, it just falls apart because it is built by Americans............ brush............. is very troubling.

As someone who owned an auto repair and towing business for 9 years (and repaired all types of cars), I can tell you that there is good and bad in all makes................ and all makes produce a lemon now and then. Unfortunately, that is the side effect of mass production, humans, and thousands of parts. I am also a huge motorhead, and follow much of the industry to this day. The differences in quality, these days, is basically even.

That said, I hope you don't hold a grudge like some of the auto buying public does. On one site, a person ranted and raved about Fords hideous quality, and how Ford Motor Company should be burned to the ground.................. because he couldn't get parts for his 1968 Cortina, in the US, in 1969. Holy Moly !!!!

On the other side, my '07 Fleetwood Avalon has fabulous build quality and quality control. Everything is tight, dry, and works perfectly................ and this seems like the general consensus for pretty much the whole industry.

I wish you luck with your PUP, and hope that now that you have fixed all the problems, that it serves you well. With the buyout, there may be a delay, but a Fleetwood/Coleman dealer should still be able to fix your trailer. Good luck. :)

[Bigdogs]

I understand your anger over the poor workmanship of your trailer............... please do understand that.

However, I have spent alot of time on this, and other forums................ before I even started to look at buying. In all of that time, I have never seen anyone who has had the problems that you had.

It would seem that you truly got the lemon of the deal. For that, I feel bad for you.

To paint the entire industry, and the American assembly, specifically.................. with the same slip-shod, terrible quality, don't care, it just falls apart because it is built by Americans............ brush............. is very troubling.

As someone who owned an auto repair and towing business for 9 years (and repaired all types of cars), I can tell you that there is good and bad in all makes................ and all makes produce a lemon now and then. Unfortunately, that is the side effect of mass production, humans, and thousands of parts. I am also a huge motorhead, and follow much of the industry to this day. The differences in quality, these days, is basically even.

That said, I hope you don't hold a grudge like some of the auto buying public does. On one site, a person ranted and raved about Fords hideous quality, and how Ford Motor Company should be burned to the ground.................. because he couldn't get parts for his 1968 Cortina, in the US, in 1969. Holy Moly !!!!

On the other side, my '07 Fleetwood Avalon has fabulous build quality and quality control. Everything is tight, dry, and works perfectly................ and this seems like the general consensus for pretty much the whole industry.

I wish you luck with your PUP, and hope that now that you have fixed all the problems, that it serves you well. With the buyout, there may be a delay, but a Fleetwood/Coleman dealer should still be able to fix your trailer. Good luck. :)

What a great post…Tempered, concise and appropriate. I agree with just about everything you said and could not have put it better myself.

There is always room for opinion and perspective but in general, Fleetwood’s quality is at the top of the pack, if not THE top.

I think part of the problem that people don’t understand what they are buying. We knew when we bought our house that it was a cookie cutter designed to sell, not to last. Meanwhile, a community right behind us was offering custom stick built homes for nearly $100k more. After 9 years, our neighbor is livid with the number of little things going wrong and doesn’t appreciate why the stick built homes are doing better. They think they got a lemon. Me on the other hand, I’ve enjoyed the $100k savings and have just replaced the necessary things with better quality as it’s needed.

It seems pretty simple to me. The P’up market is competitive; manufactures design their models to sell. The vast majorities of P’up buyers are looking for floor plans, features, and creature comforts; ease of operation and with the least amount of weight possible. Most buyers use their P’up very little and some, not at all. Most never get the chance to appreciate that P’ups are not built like cars; to last 15 years & 150k miles with little or no maintenance.

  A p’up is made mostly from MDF, particle board, thin plastic & sheet metal. If you don’t take care of it and treat it very carefully, things will break very easily. Also, among them, as with anything else, there are lemons which could seem to just crumble for no reason.

Now on a different note, I’m not Auto Technician but I am a Manufacturing Engineer. My job is to look at things, pick them apart, build them better and do it over again. I’ll agree that many domestic models have improved but there is no way that anyone can convince me that the quality is now equal with Japan. I go to the trade shows, meet the people and know what machines, processes and materials they are using. US simply cannot build a car to the caliber of some Honda’s and Toyota’s.

For the sake of the country, I hope it doesn't happen but I'd be very curious to see what Japan could do with an RV line. I bet they would be the most reliable, longest lasting, most efficient rigs with the highest resale value.

[Extreme4x4]

I painted the Domestic auto industry with one brush, but they truly are not equal. When I say I am a fan, and a motorhead, I am not being simplistic............. what I am doing is grossly underestating my knowledge and study of the auto industry.

That said, of the Domestics, Ford is by far the leader in quality and reliability. Their newest models are as good, or better than the best that the foreigners have to offer. Their value standpoint, and technology leadership (as in offering features and options on mass market cars that are usually only offered in very high end luxury cars) is quietly making a big splash.

GM is getting there. Their quality is still very spotty. Their interior design is worlds better than it used to be, but materials quality is still hit and miss. Technology application is poor, as is the offering of options that most want. The "New" GM has to get out of the mindset of "we will build it, and you will buy it, because we are GM." That arrogance is what got them in this mess in the first place. GM's newest models do show promise.

Chrysler.......... well, they really aren't a Domestic anymore, are they?? Maybe we should call them Fiat Chrysler. They are a mess.......... quality is poor............ and materials are just now, and in the near future, becoming remotely competitive. Their future product is WAY in the future, and the next couple of years are going to be............ shall we say............. dry. Desert dry.

On the other side of the ocean, Honda and especially Toyota quality has slipped alot recently............ and the quality of materials in Toyota vehicles (not Lexus) is often times worse than the competition. This is why Toyota fired their CEO, and a family member took over, with a mantra to return Toyota to what they once were. Even they know that they really dropped the ball. The "unintended acceleration" floormat debacle will prove to be a much bigger deal than most ever imagined, as the mats were only one of the problems. The smallest, cheapest, and easiest fixed of the problems.

Thus, I am not "on the surface" as I appear to be. :o)

BTW, we are all allowed to have our own opinions. I will always cheer for the home team, however, and make a concerted effort to purchase how I believe. To do otherwise, in the long run, will do nothing but hurt this country (again, my belief). This is not to say that I am willing to buy American, if it is not of the quality otherwise available. Much to the contrary.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread. Now back to our regularly scheduled PUP opinions. :)

[rabird]

The current price of tea in China is: £ 6641.4 
 http://supertart.com/priceofteainchina/index.php

Buy Loose Leaf Chinese Oolong Tea
http://www.buy-tea-online.com/buy-loose-leaf-chinese-oolong-tea.php

[canoeman]

I guess your right, I  may be a little exuberant but I have heard from dozens of evolution 3 owners about the waterlines, trim and lift systems trouble particularly the water lines they used a rigid pvc hose inside the trailer in spots that called for bending very flexible lines.
under the trailer, the lines were kinked, too long for the space etc.
I am positive that the popularity of this line was to blame, I had to wait 6 weeks for mine they couldn't keep them in stock.
I must add that after repairing all of the items left unfinished, undone,  done wrong. I do like the trailer.
my complaint is with QUALITY CONTROL it didn't exist, they were too busy pumping them out.
I think I got  a Friday trailer that's a trailer that comes off the line on Friday.
and now to find out that the Fleetwood Coleman dealers are not doing warranty, and cant get repair parts, is depressing.
but I would still like to see a Japanese rv....

[Cowtown Dave]

I think budget is a huge factor in this discussion.  I've been in shopping mode for about 3 months now.  Sure There is a 2007 Fleetwood Avalon for about $9000 available but my price range is more around $3000.  My price range puts me in the 99 to 03 Coleman ABS models and the 95-03 of everything else based on size and features.  From reading here I'm looking at a more basic model that is newer rather than older and full featured.  I typically go to State Parks, close to home with amenities. 

But thanks to all for input, this thread has really helped me focus and I'm glad to see that there is no real reason to fear the coleman!! 

[redbear]

I've posted this before, but in defense of Canoeman, I will repeat it.
The '07 (Fleetwood, not Coleman) Cobalt we bought new had some issues with both quality control and design.  We did not look at other brands, because Fleetwood is what the local dealer carried.

Quality control:
-the documents in the trailer-specific owners manual envelope matched most but not all of the installed items.  The faucet manual and curtain insert were wrong, and there was no converter manual. (I had to download the WFCO docs from a PUX link.)
-the holes drilled in the awning supports for adjustment were not deburred.  The first time out, a metal snag cut my finger while pressing the release button.
-inside the load center cover, there is an oversized hole in the floor where the battery wire enters.  This apparently was intended to be "sealed" with a shot of silicone.  The silicone actually filled only 1/3 of the hole, and left enough space for a mouse to follow the wires in.
-inside the wall behind the load center, the wire to the patio light was spliced into the fused 12-volt hot wire, and pulled as tight as a guitar string.

Design:
-although the load center has multiple fuses, the entire 12-volt load is on one 20-amp fuse.
-all 12-volt loads except the patio light (furnace, 2 overhead lights, 2 bunk fan/lights), are wired through the galley tip switch.  The switch used is rated 7 amps AC, and is not rated for DC use.
-all hidden DC wiring is done with side-by-side insulation displacement splices for maximum speed of assembly.  These are the most failure-prone of any electrical connector I've worked with.  I have been soldering and heat-shrinking the connections to avoid unexpected failures.
-there are multiple AC outlets inside and outside, but not one lighter socket for 12 volts anywhere.  Apparently, the designers never heard of 'dry camping' or 'boondocking.'
-there were no 'pigtail' leads for added DC circuits on the converter disconnect plug.  The unused circuits stopped at the fuse panel side of the connector
-the steel frame supporting the dinette seat is hefty on the front, but just attached to the 1/8 inch plywood wall on the back.  I'm wary of sitting too far back.
-the diagonal brace tubes that support the two bunks have the bottom angles cut so they just have pressure on one edge of the tube, not distributed weight around it.  A more accurate cut angle or using square steel tubes would give me more confidence that the braces will not buckle.

Despite that, we are happy with the trailer.  We have not had any problems other than the brakes do not want to work first thing in the spring after being laid up, but that is Dexter and not Fleetwood.  That and tracking down a mud dauber nest year 2  that was blocking the gas hose for the outside RVQ.  The roof lift mechanism has given no trouble.

At delivery, there was a curtain with the lining separating and a scratched cabinet door which were both taken care of.  The salesman touted a "25 year warranty" on the bunks, but the fine print says after 12 months all you get is a new piece of wood, and you pay the dealer to build a bunk out of it.

We were intending to buy used, but the trade-in we saw on the lot when we went "window shopping" was very tired, so we decided not to take someone else's troubles.  I still think $6000+ is a lot for a metal box with a handful of wires, a couple of hoses, some foam pads and some "Sunbrella."