Coleman vs. Jayco vs. Starcraft

[ghacker]

We're a family of 4 looking for a used PU, probably in the 2000-2004 range based on the prices I've seen. High-walls are out of our price range, but we do want most of the goodies-A/C, awning with screen room, front storage trunk, and bike rack to name a few. A slide-out is desireable and have pretty much decided we need a 12' box.

Personally I tend to favor the Colemans but then there's the ABS roof issue. Starcraft seems to get pretty much good reviews but the nearest dealer is 45 mi. away. Jayco also gets a lot of favorable comments but maybe a few more negatives than the other two brands concerning fit and finish.

I'm hoping by voting and stating why you voted that way, some factor(s) will jump out at me and make the choice narrower so I can focus on finding what will be the best for us.

BTW, the TV is a '03 Dodge Dakota with a GVWR of 6000. Has the tow package and a 4.7L V-8.

Thanks in advance for your help and comments.

Dennis

[dmyers7]

I chose Coleman for the simple reason that I have looked around and purchase another brand during our (what seems like) continual upgrade process.  (We are on our 4th next bigger pup; and stopping).  Of the 4 that we have purchased, three where Coleman/Fleetwood pups.  All have been excellent workmanship.  The other brand was much less then that, but was value priced.  In the many years that we have been upgrading, the Coleman's (also known as Fleetwood's for a couple of years) have always looked new after many years of use.  I can't say that for the other brand; we had that for a year and it was already looking used.

So speaking on behalf of the Coleman series, excellent product.

I've known a few people with and have been in the Jayco brand and would say they do a pretty fair job also.  Don't know about Starcraft, but they have been around for a will which usually indicates they are making something someone wants.  (I leave that to those who own them and can speak to them better.)

One tall tale sign of a good pup brand is those that have tarps over the bunk ends and those that don't need them.  I always found it strange that (and I don't think this is bias), most pups excluding the Coleman campers tend to have tarps draped over the bunk ends.  Better tenting material / craftsmanship?  (I know our other pup {Flagstaff} had weeping seems in the bunk ends every time we got a hard rain.  Useless in my mind if you have to move all your stuff from the edges every time it rains.  What to do if it dare rains when you are sleeping?  Not an issue in the Coleman; and we've been in some extremely heavy rain at times.)

In general, they all use the same brand of accessories; so fit and finish and floor layout is all that differentiates them.

In general though, the one thing that scared me about the brands other then Coleman is that you have to place a safety bar over the lift arm to prevent the roof from falling down on you if an accidental cable breakage occurred.  I know this for a fact on the Flagstaff brand.  Please dismiss this on the Starcraft and Jayco brands.  Coleman has a safety system in place that prevents this from occurring on a single cable failure.  They also have Stainless Steel lift arms that will not rust over many years of use.

My 2 cents.

[hoppy]

I favor the Coleman / Fleetwood brand in spite of the ABS roof issues.

The ABS roof was a good idea in "theory" at the time to incorporate a completely seamless roof, it just didn't work out very well in the field and over time.

 I do like their boxed chassis instead of a "C" channel system. Box frames can accept a weight distribution hitch if or when needed.
 One piece door system with stepper-door option.  (I had a two piece door system on my 1-st PU that was always trouble for me)
 Wiffle tree lift system. IMHO, the best on the market to date.
 Electric brakes on all models regardless of the weight of the PU starting with MY 2001.  
 Swing-level galley on all GT and GTE series.
 Sunbrella 302 tenting on all models that requires very little maintainence.

 These are just a few of my personal preferences.  

[Unstable Tripod]

+1 on Coleman/Fleetwood.

In addition to other things previously mentioned, you can't over crank the lift system, you don't need those roof safety support bars, the tenting is permanently fastened to the box and bunk ends, the wiring is inside the frame instead of exposed under the trailer, the bunk end supports are permanently fastened to the underside of the bunks so you don't have to store them separately and installing them on set-up is a simple matter taking a second or two.

[beacher]

I purchased my Fleetwood/Coleman PopUp based on the failures of others!

- The first Starcraft PopUp I was familiar with in the 70's, the frame bent and we could not insert the door while camping.
- I had tent camped next door to a family in a Jayco PopUp, who's patriarch was found to be yelling and screaming one quiet afternoon, his wood framed bench seat collapsed under his weight, destroying an attached cabinet in the process.
- Constant Starcraft and Jayco condensation stories.
- Too many noisy and sleepless late arrival nights due to bunk support pole storage issues, mixup and frustration with Starcraft and Jayco owners while they are setting up in the dark.
- One piece tenting!??
- Have seen two PopUps with failed rubber-torsion suspensions, hundreds of miles from their owner's homes.
- Support poles for the slide-out!?

[ghacker]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far. Very informative stuff that a complete newbie like me would never even think of. Appreciate everyone's comments good or bad.

[dmyers7]

That whole bunk condensation thing is a big one.  I've seen this often on the hybrids and did not think that it would occur on the pups.  Imagine getting up in the morning and the roof above your head is filled with little droplets of water  (don't disturb them until they dry out); not to mention the possible mold issues that could arise if not taken care of before storage.

As a three time Coleman/Fleetwood owner, I've never seen this happen on this brand through all kinds of weather / temperatures.

Hummmm

Oh, and just stay away from the ABS roof if you buy used.  It was a good idea, it just didn't survive the test of time.  The one piece roof is the best.  The two piece aluminum roof is fine, just make sure the seam looks in good shape and the plastic seal the runs down the middle track is not cracked.  It covers the screws that holds the center track in place and sealant underneath; (A source for leakage if there where to be some).  I had this problem once within the warrantee period and that fixed it until we traded it a while later.

[Tom-TC]

That whole bunk condensation thing is a big one.  ...As a three time Coleman/Fleetwood owner, I've never seen this happen on this brand through all kinds of weather / temperatures....

Never seen it on my Palomino in 13 years, in all kinds of weather, etc.

[iggy]

I'm not going to vote because I don't feel competent at this point to offer an opinion. We owned a new Starcraft (~1980-85), and just bought a NTUS 1979 in need of work, updating, etc. I'm looking forward to the freedom of being able to tear everything apart, personalize, etc., since the upfront cost was extremely small ($325!). Needs work, of course, but fundamentally sound -- more on this later.

I have a question about condensation on bunk canvas tops. I can't remember if this was an issue previously, but it may well have been. My question is this: What is the structure/design of the Coleman/Fleetwood that prevents this problem? Insulation? Better ventilation through the unit? To what extent might this problem be minimized in other brands by opening more windows, perhaps adding a small 12-V fan for better circulation and ventilation?

Thanks to OP for starting this thread. It will be interesting to see how it evolves.

BTW -- I would tend to vote for Starcraft based on my prior experience. We had some great trips, although we didn't have time to use it as much as we liked.

It was interesting camping in Yellowstone, with a HUGE emphasis on bear-proofing the campsites. This included rangers cruising through the loops several times a day with a PA system on their truck, warning everyone to stow food inside their cars, etc. This creates an interesting dilemma when we're cooking inside the TT!   

 

Somewhat concerned, DW asked one of the attendants how often they had bears in the campsite. The last one had been seven years ago (!), so I guess all their precautions were working ...

I had some of the same concerns years later, seeing signs on the road warning of moose and bear, and requiring drivers to avoid contact, keep car windows rolled up, etc. Good advice, except we were on a motorcycle ... gulp ... !   

iggy

[hoppy]

I have a question about condensation on bunk canvas tops. I can't remember if this was an issue previously, but it may well have been. My question is this: What is the structure/design of the Coleman/Fleetwood that prevents this problem? Insulation? Better ventilation through the unit? To what extent might this problem be minimized in other brands by opening more windows, perhaps adding a small 12-V fan for better circulation and ventilation?

iggy

 I had a whole lot of problems with inside condensation on my 1978 Palomino that had "canvas" tent material. 
 Canvas does not breath very well, especially when recently waterproofed. But you hit it right on the head when you mentioned good circulation and ventilation are key factors to reduce the inside condensation on any PU.
 Today's tenting material is acrylic or polyester, and breath better than the old woven cotton canvas use to do when wet. They allow the moisture to escape the inside the PU, but are still waterproof.

 Coleman uses a tenting material called Sunbrella 302, that is used in the boating industry for their covers. It is extremely breathable, and will not dry-rot, fade, or mildew. 

Good stuff.... I haven't had to maintain mine at all in over eight years.

[frwright]

I have a question about condensation on bunk canvas tops. I can't remember if this was an issue previously, but it may well have been. My question is this: What is the structure/design of the Coleman/Fleetwood that prevents this problem? Insulation? Better ventilation through the unit? To what extent might this problem be minimized in other brands by opening more windows, perhaps adding a small 12-V fan for better circulation and ventilation?

iggy

 I had a whole lot of problems with inside condensation on my 1978 Palomino that had "canvas" tent material. 
 Canvas does not breath very well, especially when recently waterproofed. But you hit it right on the head when you mentioned good circulation and ventilation are key factors to reduce the inside condensation on any PU.
 Today's tenting material is acrylic or polyester, and breath better than the old woven cotton canvas use to do when wet. They allow the moisture to escape the inside the PU, but are still waterproof.

 Coleman uses a tenting material called Sunbrella 302, that is used in the boating industry for their covers. It is extremely breathable, and will not dry-rot, fade, or mildew. 

Good stuff.... I haven't had to maintain mine at all in over eight years.

I did have condensation problems with my Coleman Westlake occasionally when camping at Lake Tahoe.  It really was only an issue when most of the following conditions occurred:

• windows on end bunks were all closed
• multiple kids (3 or more) on the end bunk
• a cold night
• furnace thermostat set low to maintain battery charge
• a kid with bed-wetting problem (guest kid, not known to us in advance)

The prevention is pretty obvious.  Despite wifey objections, at least 2 windows on each end bunk have about 6" unzipped.  That's enough to let a little air in, and a little moist air out, while keeping rain out.  Keep furnace thermostat at 50-60 on cold nights and install larger battery.  Ended the bed wetting the next day with some encouragement/training/discussion.

On my Coachmen, opening the roof vent and top of door a crack even in the rain, usually prevented any condensation issues.  I really missed the roof vent in the Coleman.

[HighLifeGuy]

I voted for fleetwood because of the research I did when looking at used popups in the 00-04 range. but, all brands are pretty close. I think when alot of people think camping they think coleman.


Jayco now has sectionalized tenting. I think they changed in 2007 but I could be wrong. we were impressed with the new Jayco products,  more so than the new coleman.

edit;  The salesman told me jaycos duratek is similer to sunbrella, but I am skeptical.  Duratek is high quality waterproofing material but I don't think it is breathable.  Bottom line is keep air moving!

[Unstable Tripod]

I think Fleetwood/Coleman has less condensation problems than many (all?) other brands because of the breathable Sunbrella fabric.  The stuff is fantastic.  In fact, they don't have roof vents on the newer units and they say this is because the Sunbrella breathes so well a vent is not necessary.  (There are some skeptical folks who do not accept this assertion, however.)

The biggest part of condensation comes from human exhalation.  So, the more people sleeping in the PUP, the more moisture.  Another factor is the outside temperature. The colder it gets, the more chance of condensation.  Combine the two issues and you have the parameters of the problem.  What to do?  Open at least two windows across from each other a little bit and run a source of heat.  DW and I have camped in the Yuma with overnight lows in the 40s and have not had a bit of condensation.  You an also use PUGs.  They will put a layer of insulation between the top of the bunk ends and the cold night air.  (If it's cold during the day, mount them with the dark side up to increase solar gain and keep the PUP warmer.)   

[Unstable Tripod]

iggy said:

It was interesting camping in Yellowstone, with a HUGE emphasis on bear-proofing the campsites. This included rangers cruising through the loops several times a day with a PA system on their truck, warning everyone to stow food inside their cars, etc. This creates an interesting dilemma when we're cooking inside the TT!

Just a question:  you post referenced PUPs but then you mention a TT in this paragraph.  To clarify, when you were in Yellowstone, were you in a PUP or hardside travel trailer?

My reason for asking is that storing food in a PUP, cooking in it and eating in it are not safe practices for camping in bear country.

[iggy]

Good point. I was referring to TT as tent trailer, but now realize in this neighborhood that means travel trailer.

We were in a Starcraft PUP soft-sided, canvas tent trailer.

I see your point, but what are the options?

We could certainly store extra dry food in the trunk of the car, but the refer is still inside the PUP. We can cook on the picnic table, but it is only 10 feet away from the PUP door. If camped at a larger site, or boondocking, it doesn't seem to practical to haul everything out 100 feet away to cook.

As I said, in this case it was somewhat academic, seeing that the bears had apparently gotten the message 7 years ago, and if they did start showing up again, would probably be tranquilized and relocated quickly. (This was a major CG in Yellowstone.)

igg